tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post116258126096921743..comments2023-05-10T08:55:47.701-07:00Comments on Richard Carrier Blogs: Science and Medieval ChristianityRichard Carrierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-41750545589975692011-05-30T15:31:39.892-07:002011-05-30T15:31:39.892-07:00Bob said... If Christianity had collapsed in the f...<b>Bob said...</b> <i>If Christianity had collapsed in the fourth Century, then maybe the Muslims or Genghis Khan would have conquered the whole of Europe and the components necessary for the development of capitalism may not have been there.</i><br /><br />False contrafactual. There is no evidence Islam or the worldview of Genghis Khan lacked the components necessary for the development of Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-62830618144474671532011-05-18T00:18:07.992-07:002011-05-18T00:18:07.992-07:00We live in a universe ruled by probability. If Chr...We live in a universe ruled by probability. If Christianity had collapsed in the fourth Century, then maybe the Muslims or Genghis Khan would have conquered the whole of Europe and the components necessary for the development of capitalism may not have been there. If that was to happen, then we would not have the internet right now and you'd be eating dirt cookies bro.<br /><br />Just saying Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10095824557957042259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-55781664246430822802010-07-28T18:52:58.396-07:002010-07-28T18:52:58.396-07:00Thanks, Arizona!Thanks, Arizona!Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-77730520587128917972010-03-30T01:00:13.396-07:002010-03-30T01:00:13.396-07:00Glad to hear it, Arizona Atheist - it is indeed ex...Glad to hear it, Arizona Atheist - it is indeed excellent.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-42024034123862299392010-03-29T16:49:34.739-07:002010-03-29T16:49:34.739-07:00Hi Mr. Carrier, I just wanted to let you know that...Hi Mr. Carrier, I just wanted to let you know that I've chosen this post of yours to be a part of this week's <a href="http://arizonaatheist.blogspot.com/2010/03/138th-carnival-of-godless.html" rel="nofollow">Carnival of the Godless</a>. I thought it was so good I thought it should be added.Arizona Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17377658912951142427noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-82481597642936258462010-01-07T06:37:37.850-08:002010-01-07T06:37:37.850-08:00Just wanted to say thanks Richard for the original...Just wanted to say thanks Richard for the original post.<br />Fascinating kick-off point for a beginner in this subject.quedulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09737971867539674984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-84281641007077026742008-12-24T17:52:00.000-08:002008-12-24T17:52:00.000-08:00This is in regards to what JD Walters suggested ab...This is in regards to what JD Walters suggested about Rome's fall at the hands of German invaders, how this was a possible cause of the dark ages: There was no Roman Empire when Greek philosophy and science first flourished. The conquest of Greece by the Macedonians and Rome did not halt scientific advancement, so why would the German conquest of Rome do so? History suggests the Germans would Gabriel Ricehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908486853905951737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-44407381563243493532008-04-04T01:22:00.000-07:002008-04-04T01:22:00.000-07:00there is nothing inherently at odds between creeda...<EM>there is nothing inherently at odds between creedal religion (as you put it) and craft</EM><BR/><BR/>Unless the craft happens to be witchcraft, or freemasonry, or some other rival system of belief. But I know what you mean. Folk weather prediction is not the same as full-on science; but it's not the same as the St Genevieve example either.<BR/><BR/>The folk practitioner might even realise,Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-57504313757807724342008-04-03T15:41:00.000-07:002008-04-03T15:41:00.000-07:00I've responded to Yvonne on her own blog (see the ...I've responded to Yvonne <A HREF="http://stroppyrabbit.blogspot.com/2008/04/classical-pagan-science.html" REL="nofollow">on her own blog</A> (see the first two comments after her post), where she repeats these and other points. <BR/><BR/>Although I have to add that folk techniques of weather prediction are also practiced within creedal religions. There is a difference between craft and science, Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-81954911222796134152008-04-03T06:40:00.000-07:002008-04-03T06:40:00.000-07:00One more thing: you also say that the contribution...One more thing: you also say that the contribution of Hindus and Muslims to science were relatively minor. Really? Then how come we're using a Hindu numerical system? (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics" REL="nofollow">Hindu mathematics</A> was very advanced - they even had quadratic equations. Whereas the Christians had a superstitious fear of zeroYewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-37646135682663893492008-04-03T05:47:00.000-07:002008-04-03T05:47:00.000-07:00St. Genevieve was described as calming storms by p...<EM>St. Genevieve was described as calming storms by praying; she was not described as learning how to predict the weather.</EM><BR/><BR/>Yup - predicting the weather (using for example cloud patterns, the flight of birds, the habits of trees, pine cones and bits of seaweed) is an activity practiced by "pagan" folk magicians and wise people.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-13514989786948492122008-04-02T08:36:00.000-07:002008-04-02T08:36:00.000-07:00A fascinating blogpost, but I must take issue with...A fascinating blogpost, but I must take issue with your definition of religion: <BR/><BR/>'<EM>To be clear, by "religion" here (since I use that word in a different sense in other contexts) I mean any belief system that places faith above evidence and reason, accepting evidence and reason only when they do not conflict with an accepted set of faith-claims. Hence those two options for a religious Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-35480873740742013202007-01-31T12:19:00.000-08:002007-01-31T12:19:00.000-08:00Odd: I do not know whether he is actually posing a...<B>Odd:</B> <I>I do not know whether he is actually posing as an agnostic, but I have come across a lot of citations from his works on the net, where those citing him are triumphantly stressing that this citation is made by an agnostic</I><br /><br />True, but to be fair, most of these are basing this assertion on his previous work and earlier material about him, which <I>does</I> suggest or say Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-2449984030103195512007-01-30T18:55:00.000-08:002007-01-30T18:55:00.000-08:00OK. I see what you mean, and I will moderate what...OK. I see what you mean, and I will moderate what I wrote. I would like to replace the "representing himself" part with "is presented as". I do not know whether he is actually posing as an agnostic, but I have come across a lot of citations from his works on the net, where those citing him are triumphantly stressing that this citation is made by an _agnostic_.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14074557065229905108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-72737099002018716572007-01-30T17:22:00.000-08:002007-01-30T17:22:00.000-08:00Loren Petrich: Thanks for that link. I've ordered ...<B>Loren Petrich:</B> Thanks for that link. I've ordered the article. I'll see what I think. <br /><br />But from what I can see it looks like Bernstein is overstating the dichotomy between Christian and Pagan thought--both had strong elements of irrationalism and rationalism. Moreover, even that dichotomy is not identical to the more important distinction between mysticism and empiricism, since Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-13530951534213885242007-01-19T16:05:00.000-08:002007-01-19T16:05:00.000-08:00I am just trying to see through the fog of rhetori...I am just trying to see through the fog of rhetoric from all sides.<br /><br />During this age of information deluge, it is as important as ever to know the background of the author(s) of a text. Now, if you are really right in what you write about Stark's religious view, that is serious. Serious because he is presenting himself as an agnostic practically everywhere, including the New York Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14074557065229905108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-70512524252093363922007-01-18T19:07:00.000-08:002007-01-18T19:07:00.000-08:00Odd, on Stark's conversion, read Big Idea, Baylor ...<B>Odd</B>, on Stark's conversion, read <B><A HREF="http://www.baylormag.com/story.php?story=004921">Big Idea</A></B>, <I>Baylor Magazine</I> 2.5 (March/April 2004).<br /><br /><B>Odd:</B> <I>However, I DO find it odd that, according to the same article, Stark claims that the waterwheel, eyeglasses, horseshoes and three-field system of agriculture were innovations of Christian monks.</I><br /><brRichard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-24018945903267302682007-01-03T20:37:00.000-08:002007-01-03T20:37:00.000-08:00Carrier wrote:
"By the way, since you seem not to ...Carrier wrote:<br />"By the way, since you seem not to have heard, Stark himself is no longer an agnostic. He declared himself a born again Christian several years ago (before he wrote his books on science) and now teaches at Baylor, an Evangelical university."<br /><br />I really wonder how you found this information; I can not find any information on the web to support the born-again claim. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14074557065229905108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-20836568485277273022006-12-11T08:27:00.000-08:002006-12-11T08:27:00.000-08:00Does Science Invalidate Religious Faith?<a href="http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/12/does-science-invalidate-religious.html">Does Science Invalidate Religious Faith?</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13900843579715907140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-61206911091584772542006-11-29T17:17:00.000-08:002006-11-29T17:17:00.000-08:00Roger Pearse: Severus Sebokht, besides being a Nes...<B>Roger Pearse:</B> Severus Sebokht, besides being a Nestorian, is another non-relevant example. Obviously there were still astronomers and doctors continuing to practice and transmit elements of what had been passed on (as I said in my original article, that falls under "dogmatic activities like observing the movement of the stars or performing textbook surgery"), but they weren't advancing Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-19117322017830994042006-11-29T17:13:00.000-08:002006-11-29T17:13:00.000-08:00Loren Petrich: I agree militant Neoplatonism takin...<B>Loren Petrich:</B> I agree militant Neoplatonism taking over was historically unlikely. Hence my counterfactual was <I>if it became</I> a mass movement comparable to the Church, not that it would have become such had Christianity failed to dominate. I've also pointed out why <A HREF="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/improbable/luck.html#18.5">Mithraism was unlikely to do Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-70094799116439115702006-11-29T17:10:00.000-08:002006-11-29T17:10:00.000-08:00JD Walters, you're now saying if I "pretty much ac...<B>JD Walters</B>, you're now saying if I "pretty much accept that Christianity has had a complex relationship to science over the centuries," I do, "and that it did play a part in the rise of science in the modern period," just as paganism played a part in the ancient period, and I do, then you "don't see what else to object to." I'm a bit perplexed. My blog entry <I>was not about</I> the modernRichard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-5921771488705051482006-11-29T16:59:00.000-08:002006-11-29T16:59:00.000-08:00Bilbo Bloggins: I have deleted only a very few pos...<B>Bilbo Bloggins:</B> I have deleted only a very few posts throughout my blog. Posters themselves can delete them, too. But if anyone posted here and their post disappeared without explanation, please let me know. Otherwise, whenever I have removed comments because they were not thread-relevant, I'm pretty sure I informed the authors. <br /><br />As far as deletions go, my rules are these: Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-46735451259762383922006-11-21T11:53:00.000-08:002006-11-21T11:53:00.000-08:00You probably should also address the Syriac scient...You probably should also address the Syriac scientific writers such as Severus Sebokht also (whose work on the Constellations I am currently translating, and whose work on the Astrolabe is online). I have not read late Greek scientific writers, but in Severus Sebokht at least I do not find the attitude to which you refer. On the contrary, his attacks on the superstition of astrology that was Roger Pearsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05808510649531166290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-1163381855636932292006-11-12T17:37:00.000-08:002006-11-12T17:37:00.000-08:00J.L. Hinman has hit the nail right on the head, wh...J.L. Hinman has hit the nail right on the head, which makes your response to me and him more than a little disingeneous. We have both come to the conclusion that we agree on the basic 'facts' (though in a discipline like history the boundaries between fact and interpretation at least in some areas are blurred), your spin is decidedly negative, governed by your atheistic convictions. Other equallyLegacy Userhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11048677728480959315noreply@blogger.com