tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post8478038615273129406..comments2023-05-10T08:55:47.701-07:00Comments on Richard Carrier Blogs: Weisz Is HypatiaRichard Carrierhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-32664032998227323892010-08-23T19:08:30.158-07:002010-08-23T19:08:30.158-07:00Thank you. Yes, to which I replied by quoting my B...Thank you. Yes, to which I replied by quoting my Berkeley conference talk on this subject:<br /><br />"The problem is that Marcellinus does not appear to know what he is talking about. Just before this he wrongly said that the 'libraries' of Alexandria were in the Serapeum (nowhere near the Bruchion),1 and that they were destroyed by Julius Caesar, the same mistake noted above [in myRichard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-28138756453675308752010-08-23T11:44:11.971-07:002010-08-23T11:44:11.971-07:00s I've already told you by e-mail, Tim O'N...s I've already told you by e-mail, Tim O'Neill was claiming on the IMDB Agora forum that you had deleted one of his comments to this post when he caught you out on some fact. <br /><br />You've already e-mailed me a response which I've posted on the board showing he far from caught you out. However to prove the point, I will post his argument here so we can see whether you delete Valjeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04559183764017078797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-91831524185671912222010-08-02T10:44:21.273-07:002010-08-02T10:44:21.273-07:00Update: I have since actually seen the film myself...<b>Update:</b> I have since actually seen the film myself, and many reviews have been inaccurate. The film is excellent and largely correct. See my own review <a href="http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2010/08/agora-review.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I have also responded to a medievalist who inaccurately portrayed ancient science in respect to the film in <a href="http://Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-90717458547462842072010-07-28T14:56:18.471-07:002010-07-28T14:56:18.471-07:00The Nerd said... I just watched this last night. I...<b>The Nerd said...</b> <i>I just watched this last night. It was a rather enjoyable movie, one that I suspect will not go over very well in the United States. (It is being released in select New York and LA theaters this week, finally!)</i><br /><br />Let me know if you ever find out it's available on DVD or hits general release in U.S. theaters.<br /><br /><i>You'll be pleased to know Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-69693170369435990642010-06-01T06:31:57.958-07:002010-06-01T06:31:57.958-07:00I just watched this last night. It was a rather e...I just watched this last night. It was a rather enjoyable movie, one that I suspect will not go over very well in the United States. (It is being released in select New York and LA theaters this week, finally!)<br /><br />You'll be pleased to know that they did not portray her as being burned in the library, but rather did have her dragged into a Church to be killed decades later.<br /><br The Nerdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00617669314398652449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-84688538347285810182009-08-26T13:30:47.937-07:002009-08-26T13:30:47.937-07:00Humphrey said... Caesar’s fire and Aurelian’s dest...<b>Humphrey said...</b> <i>Caesar’s fire and Aurelian’s destruction of the palace area might not have necessarily have affected the daughter library at the Serapeum...</i><br /><br />The Serapeum was on the Acropolis a full quarter mile from the docks and palace (entirely on the other side of the city and further separated by a wide avenue). So, no. <br /><br />There is actually no evidence Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-54251056107531289122009-08-26T13:24:29.501-07:002009-08-26T13:24:29.501-07:00Humphrey said... Hence ‘the likelihood is that by ...<b>Humphrey said...</b> <i>Hence ‘the likelihood is that by the reign of Tiberius, relatively little of what had been collected under the first three Ptolemies was still usable’.</i><br /><br />With all due respect to my former professor, Bagnall is committing a slight non sequitur here (slight only because he properly qualifies himself in the next sentence). <br /><br />Libraries certainly Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-47847731588869633592009-08-26T13:19:16.900-07:002009-08-26T13:19:16.900-07:00Tim O'Neill said... Because other accounts of ...<b>Tim O'Neill said...</b> <i>Because other accounts of Christian mobs "cleansing" pagan sites gleefully highlight the burning or destruction of pagan books - see Mark the Deacon's account of Porphyry's destruction of the Marneion in Gaza, for just one example.</i><br /><br />That's a Christian author, not a pagan one, writing about the <i>deliberate</i> destruction of Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-59375342850388786602009-07-27T03:44:27.889-07:002009-07-27T03:44:27.889-07:00Hi Richard
I forgot I had posted the link to Tim’...Hi Richard<br /><br />I forgot I had posted the link to Tim’s article but I see he has picked up on your comments. I think this is something we can debate endlessly without much consensus (the limited sources we have can always be disputed). Just going on Roger S Bagnall’s treatment of this in ‘Hellenistic and Roman Egypt’, it seems archaeological work at the Serapuem has shown that there were Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11936974517695558399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-83791676002962314102009-07-26T15:45:35.883-07:002009-07-26T15:45:35.883-07:00(Continued)
Why does Ammianus talk of the Serapeu...(Continued)<br /><br /><b>Why does Ammianus talk of the Serapeum as having housed a library in the past tense?</b><br /><br /><i>Because he doesn't know what he is talking about. His text on this is a quotation almost verbatim of the 2nd century Aulus Gellius, and when we look at that source, we can see Marcellinus has garbled his facts badly (and thus evidently had no direct knowledge, sinceTim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-52946510677628904792009-07-26T15:44:30.407-07:002009-07-26T15:44:30.407-07:00Richard Carrier said...
Tim O'Neill said....<b> Richard Carrier said...</b><br /><br /> <i>Tim O'Neill said... "tens of thousands of books were destroyed" Really? So why does no account of the destruction of the Serapeum mention this?<br /><br />Why do you expect they would?</i><br /><br />Because other accounts of Christian mobs "cleansing" pagan sites gleefully highlight the burning or destruction of pagan Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-4334339252381629502009-07-24T21:06:07.570-07:002009-07-24T21:06:07.570-07:00Tim O'Neill said... "tens of thousands of...<b>Tim O'Neill said...</b> <i>"tens of thousands of books were destroyed" Really? So why does no account of the destruction of the Serapeum mention this?</i><br /><br />Why do you expect they would? The Serapeum wasn't targeted as a library, and the accounts of its fate are very brief, and don't enumerate what was in it. The longest account of its contents focuses solely on Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-33410282592889686972009-07-24T21:05:10.446-07:002009-07-24T21:05:10.446-07:00Humphrey: Thanks for the link (to Tim O'Neill&...<b>Humphrey:</b> Thanks for the link (to Tim O'Neill's <a href="http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2009/05/agora-and-hypatia-hollywood-strikes.html" rel="nofollow">"Agora" and Hypatia - Hollywood Strikes Again</a>). Reiterates some of my concerns. But there are still concerns. Some of what he says there is as faulty, questionable, or untrue as the errors he aims to combat. But aRichard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-65919313962569028672009-07-24T21:02:03.742-07:002009-07-24T21:02:03.742-07:00UnBeguiled said... I really enjoyed Gladiator and ...<b>UnBeguiled said...</b> <i>I really enjoyed Gladiator and Troy, I'm embarrassed to admit.</i><br /><br />Actually, those are very good films. Unrealistic as hell, but I'm not a stickler for that sort of thing. As long as the film maintains its own internal coherence and is artistically exceptional in the usual ways, I'll enjoy it. The ancients would retell stories in wildly Richard Carrierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17577206926510030146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-12474442027603029912009-07-15T13:30:46.833-07:002009-07-15T13:30:46.833-07:00It's been over a month since this post Rick. Y...It's been over a month since this post Rick. You ought to write somethng new. Tell us how "On the Historicity" is coming.madelinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18089859752845193350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-48562158480233437932009-06-17T23:56:20.777-07:002009-06-17T23:56:20.777-07:00Good, WAR_ON_ERROR. As to making a dramatized vers...Good, WAR_ON_ERROR. As to making a dramatized version, one ought to do what a historical novelist version would do -- create fictional characters and dialogue and actions that are plausible for that place and time. And for working out what is plausible, you need to research the place and time, which is why I proposed reading RC's paper on eclipses in the Roman Empire.<br /><br />One ought notLorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13984896453534621864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-44725894374873783282009-06-15T20:23:07.765-07:002009-06-15T20:23:07.765-07:00"tens of thousands of books were destroyed&qu..."tens of thousands of books were destroyed"<br /><br />Really? So why does no account of the destruction of the Serapeum mention this? Why doesn't the anti-Christian eyewitness, Eunapius of Sardis, mention this? Why does Ammianus talk of the Serapeum as having housed a library in the past tense?<br /><br />It's sad that a supposedly trained Classicist peddles pseudo Tim O'Neillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00292944444808847980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-49603860500241201022009-06-14T19:43:14.607-07:002009-06-14T19:43:14.607-07:00Loren,
I will try to do that when I get some time...Loren,<br /><br />I will try to do that when I get some time.<br /><br />BenBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-80330748345098932732009-06-13T02:50:03.536-07:002009-06-13T02:50:03.536-07:00Ah, come on, Richard!
"Exagerating certain re...Ah, come on, Richard!<br />"Exagerating certain realities"? "Idealistic fiction"? Its called PROPAGANDA.<br />Just because it is for atheism doesn't change the name.Emanuel Goldsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02653303041185240250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-62008593448801134562009-06-12T00:43:35.020-07:002009-06-12T00:43:35.020-07:00WAR_ON_ERROR, I suggest that you read RC's the...WAR_ON_ERROR, I suggest that you read RC's thesis on eclipses, and see if you can find anything that could be dramatized. RC chose that subject because it was a clear triumph of premodern science.<br /><br />It's a pity that we don't have much on Aglaonike, a woman who lived in 2nd-cy-BCE Thessaly and who was reputed to be able to cause lunar eclipses with sorcery.<br /><br />She was Lorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13984896453534621864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-73597902566880995392009-06-11T09:26:00.576-07:002009-06-11T09:26:00.576-07:00I dunno. Maybe "Inherit the Wind" style...I dunno. Maybe "Inherit the Wind" style, possibly? Anything contentious has the potential for decent drama. I've listened to lots of Rick's talks on various ancient debates and scientific disputes that few people seem to know about and I don't see why someone could weave an interesting embellished story around those basic elements. Hell, make it a musical for all I care.Benhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-26215124512459745112009-06-11T09:08:41.748-07:002009-06-11T09:08:41.748-07:00WAR_ON_ERROR, how might one make a dramatic story ...WAR_ON_ERROR, how might one make a dramatic story out of what Richard Carrier will be discussing?<br /><br />The closest I can think of is reactions to eclipses and the contrast between educated people, who knew that eclipses were predictable shadowing effects, and the common people, who often believed that eclipses were omens or the result of sorcerers' efforts. And even that would be Lorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13984896453534621864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-60322239227380453512009-06-11T08:04:03.144-07:002009-06-11T08:04:03.144-07:00http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2009/05/agora-a...http://armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2009/05/agora-and-hypatia-hollywood-strikes.htmlHumphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11936974517695558399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-13651168852047574542009-06-11T00:24:12.788-07:002009-06-11T00:24:12.788-07:00Rick,
Thanks for this. I was planning on seeing ...Rick,<br /><br />Thanks for this. I was planning on seeing the movie. <br /><br />I think I've had the idea of a romanticized history of science/skepticism and humanistic values ever since reading about Josiah in "The Bible Unearthed." If ancient theologians can bring together a collection of disparate and unrelated stories to suit what they would like to believe, then why not doBenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14479224236264150172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36959219.post-89468994696792154152009-06-10T22:39:53.175-07:002009-06-10T22:39:53.175-07:00Hypatia was lynched by those monks because she sup...Hypatia was lynched by those monks because she supposedly kept the provincial governor and the archbishop from getting along with each other. It wasn't because of her philosophical / mathematical / scientific studies, though it was still an extremely dumb reason.<br /><br />It was a bit like Lavoisier getting guillotined by the French revolutionaries. Lavoisier's researches did not Lorenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13984896453534621864noreply@blogger.com